Rational Redemption Answered

Patrick Reany

23 October 2023

See video at:

Rationalizing Redemption: Why Jesus' Sacrifice Doesn't Add Up.

The existence of counterfeits does not prove the lack of existence of the real thing. -- Patrick

On 21 May 2023, MindShift (Brandon) published the YouTube video titled "Rational Redemption: Why Jesus' Sacrifice Doesn't Add Up." MindShift tells us that we believers are believing in an "incapable" God: A God who cannot get the message out to everyone in a singular way. I don't know why God chose to spread the gospel of salvation by word of mouth (or by other means, epistles, Websites, YouTube channels, etc). He just did. In the very last days of this dispensation, before Jesus returns to set up His kingdom on earth, an angel will go forth to proclaim repentance to the nations.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. -- Revelation 14:6-7
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. -- Matthew 24:14
As to the comment by MindShift that God is inhabiting the sky, I let Paul reply:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: -- Acts 17:24-30
But, as Brandon claims we believe, God does 'inhabit' the sky, which, in a way, that's true because God is everywhere:
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. -- Psalms 139:7-10

Brandon seems to find no rhyme nor reason for the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and His subsequent resurrection. I aim to address that issue as well as I, a Christian, but a non-apologist, can do so. Brandon seems to think that the concept of hell is a nonbeneficial thing in Christianity. Beneficial is not the correct way to think about hell. There are loads of things in this world that just are. For example, if you get too much sun on your skin over your lifetime, you could end up with skin cancer. It's just a fact of life to live with. The gospel included the truths of both heaven and hell. They're just things to be dealt with. You can ridicule them or ignore them, but then they'll come back to bite you.

Brandon then plays a video he made earlier that included what looks like two Catholics in a Q & A session. This question was asked.

Why is his [Jesus's] death on the cross the best way possible for our salvation?
This is the type of question philosophers and apologists are wont to ask and attempt to answer. Anyway, I won't reproduce the reply given by the older man, but I will say that I find no fault with it, except to say this: In answer to these questions, why was His death on the cross the best way? How are we to enter the mind of God except by His revelation to us through the Bible? One can build pretty easily a self-consistent case of why God demanded blood sacrifice and obedience to the gospel, but you can't use it to explain why it is the 'best' way God could have proceeded, or whether or not God thought that He had alternatives He could have used. It seems intuitive that God, who is perfect, could have only chosen the 'best' way, but for according to whom and according to what purposes?

Brandon asks, "Why did something have to die?" To this question, I can only answer to my own satisfaction: God hates sin. He's not just a little put off by it, He hates it. And He wants us to hate it too. And to aid the process of converting people into sin haters, He manifested the seriousness of sin by insisting that something die for it, and its blood (wherein is the life) be shed for it.

Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? -- Ezekiel 18:19-23
Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: -- Hebrews 9:20-24
Brandon equates the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the cross to mere "blood magic," claiming it's no better than any pagan's notion of blood sacrifice. Brandon is entitled to his belief, but I think of it this way: If the real deal is too hard to bear up under, just make an easier counterfeit of it to follow. That's what pagans did historically, going all the way back to Cain, who perverted the manner of worship to God to conform it to his own liking. Apparently, Cain couldn't be bothered to just do religion the way God told him to do it. So, he went and improvised on it:
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. -- Genesis 4:3-7
So, we aren't told here the precise manner that Cain and Abel had been instructed by God to worship Him, but it's clear from context that they knew what it was and that Cain didn't want to follow God's way of doing things. (In effect, Cain had invented a pagan religion -- the forerunner of them all that followed after.) So, God appeared to Cain to warn him to change his ways, for he could still fix the rebellion in his heart before it gets out of control. But Cain wasn't having it. God still comes to us, through our consciences, to warn us to repent.

By his refusal to just repent of his prideful stubbornness, Cain developed what the writer of the Book of Hebrews would millenia later refer to as a 'root of bitterness' in his heart, in accordance with he was motivated to murder his own brother.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled. -- Hebrews 12:15
Magic is the 'counterfeit' of God's miracles. It takes godly discernment to tell the difference between the real miracles of God and the fake miracles (magic) of the Devil. Jesus was Himself accused by His enemies the Pharisees of doing magic:
Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. -- Matthew 12:22-24
Given that God finds sin contemptible, and given that God requires some accounting for human sin, does that leave God with a spectrum of choice on how He would institute propitiation for human sin? [1 John 2:2] Maybe not. Maybe, the more knowing one is and the more moral one is, the less range of choice one has. Maybe God thought that this way, presented to us in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, was the only way consistent with His requirements. And God knew what He personally would have to do from the very beginning:
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. -- Revelation 13:7-8
After Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, the need for a savior to die on a cross was no afterthought to God:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. -- Genesis 3:15
Jesus, the seed born of a woman [Galatians 4:4], would someday thereafter die as a propitiation for the sins of Mankind. And immediately we see God making a blood sacrifice for the covering of Man's sin and shame:
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them. -- Genesis 3:21
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. -- 1 John 2:1-2
Immanuel -- God with us. What gives God the right to live amongst us as brother and ruler? It has been God's desire to live freely amongst the people He has created and redeemed. But, as David proclaimed: And David, according to the saying of God, went up as the Lord commanded.
20 And Araunah looked, and saw the king and his servants coming on toward him: and Araunah went out, and bowed himself before the king on his face upon the ground. And Araunah said, Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant? And David said, To buy the threshingfloor of thee, to build an altar unto the Lord, that the plague may be stayed from the people. And Araunah said unto David, Let my lord the king take and offer up what seemeth good unto him: behold, here be oxen for burnt sacrifice, and threshing instruments and other instruments of the oxen for wood. All these things did Araunah, as a king, give unto the king. And Araunah said unto the king, The Lord thy God accept thee. And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the Lord my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver. -- 2 Samuel 24:20-24
Brandon takes great exception to the message of the death of Jesus on the cross as bestowing "infinite dignity" to mankind. Well, I have a problem with that nonscriptural phrase too, because I don't know what "infinite dignity" even means. I would venture to claim that the act of Jesus dying on the cross for the salvation of the world does proclaim a dignity of mankind in the eyes of God, but that was not the main purpose of Jesus's death on the cross. The main purposes of Jesus's death on the cross was to provide propitiation for the sins of Mankind and to make Jesus (the Captain of our salvation) perfect through the things which He willingly suffered.

And even though God claims that all things belong to Him, yet He would not take possession of them without paying some fair price for it. Thus, God, in Jesus, would have to pay for the sins of the world by the obedience of Christ in His life on up to and including the death on the cross, which he did not deserve. And that made Christ worthy to inherit all things!

When John, who wrote Revelation, saw that no man seemed to be worthy to open the seals, he wept, seeming to think that all that had been worked out by so many over some many millenia, and so diligently had been for nothing. But wait! No, someone came forth!!

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Revelation 5:1-7
The Apostle John told us that the true believers of Christ must walk as Jesus walked to be worthy of Him:
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. --- 1 John 2:5-6
Christ lived a life that His followers should emulate, even unto death, if necessary.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. -- Revelation 3:3-4
For Jesus to be fully ready to inherit the world and all souls, and to rule upon the earth for a thousand years, He had to achieve a prerequisite level of personal perfection in the eyes of the Father.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. -- Hebrews 2:9-10
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. -- Hebrews 4:15-16

Brandon refers to the message of salvation provided for us in the Gospel as a "loophole." Well, I think that Brandon is just playing with words. (Like he does with 'God being in the sky'.) This is Wikipedia's definition of "loophole":

A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a system, such as a law or security, which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the purpose, implied or explicitly stated, of the system.
This was no wily lawyer wrangling out of the vagaries of the Law some crafty "loophole" to bypass the condemnation of hell. The Gospel is the manifestation of the means by which Man can be saved from his sins by diligent obedience to it. For God has always looked for a people who would obey Him.

So, Brandon tells us that the Gospel message is that we need to accept God's "blood magic" to be saved. He then answers the question of the "best" method of forgiving Mankind. Brandon sees the Gospel method of forgiveness as hard, complicated, and restrictive. He prefers salvation to be simple and easy:

Maybe God was Himself stuck, Brandon. Maybe He could only morally justify us one way: the way He chose for us. And I do agree with Brandon on this one thing: We humans are indeed stuck. Whether we like it or not, we have only two choices: Accept the Gospel and be all in with it, or reject the Gospel and suffer the consequences of that choice.

Brandon seems to be under the teachings of the free salvation heresy. We are saved by works, Brandon, but not the works of the Law of Moses, nor some cobbled together system of morality, nor the Code of Hammurabi. Those who only believe (mental assent) are as good as damned [James 2:19]. He that doeth righteousness is righteous. [1 John 3:7] To those that are all-in with Jesus, they get the grace to rise above the deeds of fallen flesh and to do the works of righteousness all saved people are required to do.

Then what of grace, then, I hear people say? You're not going to do the works of God apart from the grace of God to do it. One must know how to please God and then do it. That's by the grace of God. We need the forgiveness of our sins: that's also from the grace of God. We need the power to overcome the flesh nature and thus not commit uncleanness or fornication. That's from the grace of God. Every good thing and every empowering thing we have is from the grace of God. But if we refuse to use the grace that God gives us, we become the unprofitable servant to be cast into hell. What "works" is, is the attempt to be good enough to please God all on our own, apart from the ministry of the Lord Jesus. That's why a system of "works" is unpleasing to God. It's in the first place prideful, rebellious, and not least of all, ineffective. The works we must do to please God are in the grace of God, by faith, acting in love.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. -- John 5:28-29
What about the option of more than one means to salvation? In the Christian context, that would be ridiculous! If there were any other means of salvation than for Christ to die on the cross, then His death is in vain. A set of rules, no matter how moral they are, did not die on a cross for us.

Then Brandon says something that shocks me. He claims that the death of Christ on the cross was meaningless because He was soon thereafter raised from the dead, negating His sacrifice of death. Well, I'm going to give Brandon the benefit of the doubt and just explain it, for this is as straightforward as any doctrine of the New Testament can be.

It was never God's purpose to keep Jesus dead -- physically dead, anyway.

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. -- Psalms 16:10
Jesus Christ was NOT on this earth as an unfeeling robot. He lived as a man and felt all things in His flesh and emotions that men feel. He prayed to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane to be spared the death on the cross because He feared it, though He went through with it to fulfil the scriptures. On that cross He suffered physical torments and emotional shame. He also had to feel separation from God the Father for a short time, presumably in that period when He became the embodiment of the collective sins of all Mankind. Once Christ died on the cross, he had fulfilled everything He needed to do while he was "in the flesh." There was no reason after that for Him to "stay dead." In fact, He was supposed to be raised from the dead, the first fruits of New Testament resurrection.

Brandon insists that for the Gospel to make sense to him, for any sinner to be redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, then Jesus must be forever banished from the presence of God the Father. Well, admittedly, there is some logic to that, but there's also logic that God should just condemn all humans for their sins and be done with it. Now, that would be efficient, wouldn't it, Brandon?! Simplify the whole mess!

The biggest problem I see about Brandon's logic is that Jesus laid down His life in the physical body voluntarily. The souls that sinneth it shall die, but Jesus was sinless. Jesus did not have to die at all in the flesh, and certainly it would make no sense for Him, as a nonsinner, to have to be eternally separated from God.

To make matters even more complicated for Brandon, he sees humans as mere animals. No wonder he regards the entire message of the Gospel as utter nonsense. I do not consider people as animals, yet I am a highly educated person. God so made the world, Brandon, that the secularist can see enough evidence for naturalism to delude him or her to damnation, yet He also endowed the world with enough evidence of intelligent design, historical truth, and physical supernaturalism, not to mention the direct manfestation of Jesus in the lives of every true follower of Jesus (John 14:21), so that the believer can claim truthfully that God has not left us without witness of Himself (Acts 14:17).

Look, it's all very simple, people. God made us, allowed us to have free will, which we used to sin. And now we find ourselves in need of forgiveness/redemption/salvation. God supplied that means of salvation, whether we fully understand the whys and wherefores of that salvation or not, and which I do not pretend to fully understand, not do I care to understand. Why? Because, in the end, my knowing the exact reasons -- all the details -- will not change the fact that my salvation comes down to one thing: Will I accept God's plan of salvation or not? If I should happen not to like that way God does things, I have to ask: What's liking got to do with anything here? If you have committed to following Jesus, then dwelling on those things that God does that rub you the wrong way is self-defeating. Jesus said:

And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. -- Matthew 11:6
Of course Jesus knew that His Gospel is offensive to us. It's on us to get passed that. Not being offended by the way God does things is a mindset the victorious must put on. Nevertheless, there are virtuous things for us to admire God for: He wants us to be kind to each other and never lie to each other. Those virtues alone are enough to find reason to love God, and to quit being self-righteous to think that we have a better plan for salvation.

Brandon takes issue with the expression "the life of God," and so do I. It's unclear what it means and it's certainly problematic. Nevertheless, I think that man who said it could easily rephrase it to something clearer.

Brandon then quibbles over whether God should love us as much as He loved Jesus, claiming that He should, which is what the Bible says, so what's the beef? I think that for me, a better word than 'heretical' would be 'astonishing'. There's no doubt that what we're discussing here is paradoxical, so why does the nonbeliever Brandon assume the responsibility to tell Christians how they should react to this paradoxical claim? Brandon seems to think that this concept of God's love for man being equal to that of His love for His Son as really important. Well, as much as it's stated once in the Bible, it is of importance, but one's salvation does not hang on it -- so it's not worth arguing about.

But then Brandon goes off into fallacy. He says that we should expect God to love us, as we are His creation. But that is not the issue and is why we really shouldn't argue over these subtle points. Of course God loves us, but to love us as much as He loves Jesus is to me astonishing. But this doctrine isn't worth arguing about.

As for the criticism that believers have adopted a slave mentality, they do so correctly. As Paul told us:

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. -- Romans 6:8
We adopt this mindset so that to evade the situation, by reason of having an undisciplined mind and carelessness, we slip into sin. We're supposed to be quite intentional about our service to God:
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. -- Philippians 2:5-8
Brandon continues to rank down believers who emphasize their unworthiness in the eyes of God, claiming that we ought to accept our worthiness in God through Christ Jesus. This is true, though there must be a balance because we know that we are not perfect. Again, this is one of those paradoxes. But if we focus our minds on the paradoxes of the New Testament, we will never come to faith in Jesus. Brandon, if some believer should claim that he or she is not worthy of God's love, I just think that that is bad doctrine. We must always separate the Gospel and bad doctrine about the Gospel. God loves us whether we are worthy of that love or not.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting Life. -- John 3:16
So, for me anyway, the question is not whether we are worthy of God's love, because God will send to hell even people He loves. That's why we are called to make our lives a living sacrifice for Jesus. Salvation was never meant to be easy!
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -- Mark 10:17-25
The question is how should we walk in this present world to be worthy of His salvation. The hard part for believers is to find that godly sweet spot in between humility and entitlement. Entitlement comes out of pride and begets more entitlement.
You either get control over your lusts and feelings of entitlement, or they will get control over you. -- Ilfinor
My own opinion is that to error from this sweet spot on the side of pride and entitlement is a short journey out of the grace of God's salvation, if one is even saved in the first place. My own feeling is that the vast majority of so-called Christians in the West are absolutely not saved.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. -- Titus 1:6

Then Brandon returns to the Old Testament way of blood sacrifice to make a point, which is just wrong. We are now in the times of the New Testament and the means of sacrifice is done for us once and for all. We do not kill animals any more to appease God.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. -- Hebrews 10:10

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. -- Matthew 26:8

So, according to Hebrews, all that Jesus needed to offer to the Father was His physical, temporary body, not His eternal soul.

Apparently Brandon has never heard of the 'age of accountability' because he seems to think that God will condemn the very young.

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. --Matthew 18:10
But this not a grace that Jesus claimed applies to adults. And like it or not, Brandon, Jesus is going to send most people who have ever lived to hell for eternity. And your very top responsibility in the eyes of God is to make sure that you're not one of them. To accomplish that, you will need to draw upon four channels of service and worship to God: Heart, mind, soul, and strength.
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. -- Mark 12:30
Did you know that Jesus gave all of His physical strength to God? I'll give just one example: Jesus carried His cross as far as He could, until He collapsed and then someone else had to carry it for Him.

Oh, poor Brandon cannot understands the internal mysteries of the Trinity. Well, move over Brandon because I can't either. So what? God has reveal Himself as three persons in one Godhead. I don't try to understand it deeply: I just accept it. Do you insist on understanding everything in life before you accept it, Brandon? You probably don't. We don't fully understand the nature of human consciousness, yet we believe in consciousness.

If I read in a book about a red egg, and a blue egg, and a green egg in one basket, do I have to 'philosophize' about it to come to the 'difficult' conclusion that I just read about three eggs in a basket?

When was Jesus reunited with The Heavenly Father? Was it immediately after He died? These are questions that engender pointless controversy, not godly edification. Nevertheless, so as not to offend my unbelieving friends, I will venture some guesses. Jesus is no trivial guy. He existed preincarnate (and was seen in some form of body often in the Old Testament). There was His incarnate form. Then there was His disembodied form. Then he was incarnate again into His resurrection body. After His ascension into heaven, He sits (actively, not passively, as the Head of His Church on earth) at the right hand of the Father. I'm not going to say when Jesus was 'reunited' with the Father because Scripture is not clear on it, furthermore, I'm not even sure what it means. One could even make the case that it was somewhere around the time when He said on the cross, "It is finished," (John 19:30).

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. -- Luke 23:46
Jesus wasn't idle during His pre-resurrection period. He went to hell (Ephesians 4:7-10) and perhaps took the keys to hell from the Devil. He had to get the keys at some time post resurrection because He had them in His posession in Revelation (Revelation 1:17-18). He also took captivity captive (Psalm 68:18).

Come on, Brandon. No where in the Bible is the phrase "infinite dignity." What's it even supposed to mean? You're taking some man's opinion about the doctrine and using it as a foil, rather than just sticking to the biblical doctrines themselves. I can neither affirm nor deny that the death of Jesus on the cross gives us 'infinite dignity' because I don't know what it's supposed to mean.

Believers believe hundreds or even thousands of things that are either wrong or ambiguous or controversial and pointless. Are you going to just argue about them? Similarly, to those who say that God cannot be all-loving yet allow evil in the world, I disagree. I have no idea what it means to claim that God is all-loving. Why don't people also claim that God is all-just? God has revealed to us many of His attributes, but if we single out one of them to the exclusion of the rest of them we will likely create a distorted view of God.

Next, Brandon claims that the believer's emphasis on dignity comes as a rebuke to the atheist's claim that the dignity of people is meaningful in atheism. How so? If we are the result of random, meaningless mutations over the ages, then our existence is completely meaningless. Apparently to Brandon, God is a myth, so any argument that man has dignity based on a myth is ridiculous. Well, folks, each of us has to make that choice what we're going to believe and take to the grave with us: We are either the result of meaningless mutation of impersonal forces of the universe, or we are the special creation of God. [Yes, folks, I have phrased it in the 'either-or' mode, because for most people in the West, that's what it comes down to.]

Exactly and precisely why did Jesus have to die on that cross? I don't know. The Bible is clear why Jesus had to die on the cross, but not exactly clear why he died on the cross. (There's a distinction!) The Bible does not reveal why God did not choose an alternative. For us to know exactly why God chose to have His Son die on the cross, we would have to know, by scripture, why God ruled out every other possible means (the possible alternatives), but scripture does not provide that. We aren't supposed to endlessly argue over ambiguous doctrines. I'm neither a philosopher nor an apologist, so I refuse to do it.

Brandon seems to think that the deal God made with Mankind is not a fair exchange: One man's temporary death = the eternal salvation for many. Okay, so if Brandon were God, he'd do it differently. Well, we only have the God we have, and He did it His way, whether Brandon likes or understands that or not.

Brandon claims that Jesus was not special because He must have cheated somehow. In all His few trials, He used some form of resistance that was denied to all others. So His ability to live a sinless life was not special. Well, not so. Even if this "Jesus had it easy" notion were correct, did any other fully cognizant person ever live a sinless life? If not, then He was special.

So, Brandon doesn't believe that Jesus was tempted by every single form of temptation that every human being ever had. I don't think He was either, but so what?

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. -- Hebrews 4:15
So, what was the author of Hebrews trying to say? That he was tempted to take short cuts to His glory by accepting the offer of the Devil. He was tempted to grow weary in well doing. He was tempted to ignore the scripture instead of being guided by them. And on and on. He was tempted to not go to the cross, yet He did anyway. The question whether Jesus suffered more than anyone else is irrelevant because Jesus did not have to suffer at all. Jesus was born under the Law (Galatians 4:4). And everyone who sins under the Law is condemned, unless he keep the Law perfectly. But Jesus had no sin of His own, so that death could not hold Him. Thus, every scintilla of suffering He suffered for Mankind was a gift to us.

Brandon continues to harp on his inability to make God's Jesus-only death on the cross as fair in his mind. He seems to think that God should have a more 'tit-for-tat' redemption plan trade-off. In his mind, God is unjust to redeem billions of people and only suffer the temporary loss of just one of His own: It doesn't balance out in his mind. Well, Brandon, you're not God. But you're not the first to claim that God is unfair! People have long been calling God's way of doing things 'unfair." [Ezekiel 18:25]

The concept of "original sin" is tricky. The term is not in the Bible. We aren't sinners merely because somebody sinned before us. We are sinners because we live in a flesh body that leads us to sin, and we willingly yield to it. We sin by choice. Just the same, the term "original sin" is confusing, so I prefer to stay away from it, if I can.

This is the bottom line for all atheists and skeptics: You will never find Jesus by the use of your mind alone. Jesus told us to serve God through our heart, mind, soul and strength. If you want to have a chance to find God, you must use more than the mind, which is habitually skeptical by nature. To offset that, you must open your heart to God's love and your soul to the Intuition of Truth.

Original sin: People are born with a sin nature as the offspring of spiritually fallen Adam and Eve. This is absolutely true.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: -- Romans 5:12
The antidote to the flesh nature is the Spirit of God in us:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. -- Galatians 5:16
Brandon is so consternated that God has the temerity to institute a system of redemption that Brandon does not find logical. Brandon, I don't like every single thing that God has done or will do, but so what? I either accept the deal God offers or I don't. I think the best answer I can give to Brandon as to why God can't just forgive us all even without our submitting to Him in obedience to the Gospel is because he (Brandon) doesn't consider sin to be as grievous as God considers it, nor does he consider Jesus's sacrifice on the cross to be as wonderful as God does. How much do you want salvation, Brandon? Do you want it more than anything else? If you don't, you're insulting and failing the grace of God, and you're revealing your lack of appreciation for what God has done for us.

Brandon, you're going to have to utilize all four channels of worship and service to God if you want to finally get it before it's too late. Just endlessly complaining that you don't like the way God does things isn't going to help at all.

Brandon reveals to us that when he was a child, he was not impressed that Jesus lived a life without sin, because he reckoned Jesus to be non-human. Apparently, Brandon cannot, even today, imagine Jesus being 'fully' God and 'fully' man at the same time. Well, as for myself, I have no problem believing this doctrine today, even as I had no difficulty believing it when I was a child. I really don't see where the difficulty lies in this teaching. What does it mean to claim that Jesus was human? It means that Jesus was born into this world in the body of a male human being. And, as a possessor of a human body, Jesus felt the temptations a human male would feel.

I will tell you, Brandon, why I think that Christianity is true: First, by my personal Intuition of Truth. And second, by the fact that ever since my day of salvation in mid-June 2008, I have been a very different person. I no longer feel the need to drink alchohol, or have sex, or gamble. All of that was done away with in one day by the power of the Holy Spirit working in me. So, every day I have the demonstrable manifestation of Jesus and His power of the cross working in me. I need look to no other religion for salvation, thank you, Jesus!

Once again, folks, this is the demonstrable power of God to all those who are All-In with Jesus:

--- Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. -- Galatians 5:16
Brandon tells us that we don't need a savior to redeem us from our sins because we are not sinners in the first place. Every person on earth of culpable age must decide for him or herself whether that claim is true or not. And there's a lot hanging on how you answer that question, and what you do afterwards.

You either get control of your lusts and feelings of entitlement or they will get control of you. -- Ilfinor