Reply to Sidestepping Satan: Frank Turek
Dodging The Question

Patrick Reany

29 December 2023

This essay is to reply to MindShift about a key doctrine of the Bible that he believes that apologist
Frank Turek has dodged. I intend to reply to the controversial question myself, and also to comment
on how Turek replied to the audience member. The YouTube video (12 December 2023) is found at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7888icTqSKU

MindShift claims that Turek has no good reply to the question he was asked because he rephrased
the question multiple times. I submit that there is a correct and obvious reply to the question Turek
was asked and I will present it in long form below. I want the reader to look at how long this essay
is. It's long because that's what I consider to be an appropriate amount of words to properly address
what I consider a complex subject within the framework of theodicy. Does Turek, or any apologist,
have the luxury of having this much time to reply to a rapid-fire Q & A situation? Probably not.
But in this written essay, I do.

MindShift will tell us later that apologists should answer the 'yes or no' question up front and then
explain. And I agree. Here's my short-answer reply.

The correct reply is that God has in the past used Satan as one of His agents of testing people, and
will probably continue to do so in the future. There is no logical connection between the reply Turek
chose and the existence of a 'correct' reply, though MindShift claims that there is.

The question asked of Turek by a member of his audience was this:

If God chooses to allow the Devil to continue to exist, knowing he is going to tempt us into sin,
is God making the Devil His agent?

If God chooses to allow the Devil to continue to tempt people to sin and to lie to people, is God
making the Devil His agent?

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about,
seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same
afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all
grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered
a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. -- 1 Peter 5:8-10

BTW, it's important to know that the Devil does more than merely tempt us through our lusts; he also tempts
us through our minds by trying to get us to believe in lies, and thus to veer us away from all truth. For
wherever the truth is, Jesus is; and wherever a lie is, the Devil is. And conspiracy theories make such
wonderful Satanic lies, don't they?

So, I'll answer the question directly right now, but there is much I need to say to clarify it.

Answer to the question: Yes, God uses the Devil as His agent for the purpose of testing people, whether
those people admit to being the servants of God or not. We are all tested to reveal what our true beliefs
are and what we are truly loyal to. Is that direct enough, folks? There's never been any question of that?
I don't have to apologize for God doing bad things because God doesn't do anything bad. There are
events in my own life that I don't like, that I had no control over, but so what? You either lock it into your
mind ahead of time that whatever happens in your life that you don't like, that you refuse to blame God
for it, or you may end up falling away in bitterness and then 'deconstruct' your so-called 'salvation' --
if you were really ever saved at all.

As for all the complaints MindShift made against Turek, I am concerned. His complaints miss the mark.
Turek made some good points, but they're not easy to grasp because he didn't lay the proper foundation
to them. First of all, the questioner made it seem like the Devil is the worst of all possible agents God
could use to test us, but I don't think this is correct. I think that prosperity and wealth are far more
tempting than the Devil. Jesus warned us that there are many ways to be distracted from walking on that
straight and narrow pathway to God, and the Devil is just one of them.

Anything at all that gets in the way of your personal plans for your life can be a huge test to your will to
stay on with God, or go to God in the first place. You have to set your mind ahead of time that you will not
let any disappointment or setback in your life discourage you from following hard after Jesus.

You either get control of your lusts and feelings of entitlements or they will get control of you.

Just the same, I'm not happy with Turek's reply. Though it wasn't wrong, it was not a direct answer to the
posed question. If it were me up on that stage, answering questions like that (which would never happen
because I am not an apologist), I would answer like this to that audience member:

Sir, I will give you your choice of two possible answers:

a) Yes, with no explanation, or
b) Yes, with a long explanation.

My own view is that the yes answer is not scandalous, being clearly demonstrable in the Scriptures. But
maybe unsaved/backslidden people will disagree with that view. If you were brought up in the heretical
Prosperity Movement (looking for your entitled 'best life now'), you might be repulsed to learn that God
is more interested in the more righteous outcome for the many than the more self-entitled outcomes for
the few.

Do you remember when Israel sent twelve spies into Canaan to spy out the land and to report back to
Israel on the ability of then to take the land. Do you remember that ten of the twelve spies gave an
unfavorable report and that was a hard test to the people of Israel, who then refused to enter in as God
had commanded them to do. Those ten spies caused the Children of Israel a huge amount of hardship for
their lack of faith. It wasn't the Devil that time that caused them an extra 40 years of wandering in the
desert. And talk about the unfairness of it all, the two faithful spies, Joshua and Caleb, who were not
party to the discouraging report, had to suffer along with the faithless guilty to wander as well. Well,
folks, what's fairness got to do with following God? Very little. We take whatever God gives us and we
overcome in His grace, come hell or high water against us, or we end up in hell.

The works of the Devil and the faithlessness and ungodliness of people are not the only sources of
testing in our lives. Ironically, the blessings of God -- in prosperity -- can be an equally difficult
temptation to draw back from God. In the Book of Ezekiel we learn that the sins that eventually led
Sodom to its sexual sin started out as prosperity;

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of
idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and
needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them
away as I saw good. --- Ezekiel 36:49-50

MindShift picked the following quote from Turek, which he thinks is redirection:

If God were to stop all evil at midnight tonight, would you still be alive at 12:01?

God tests us all, and He will allow the prosperity we feel, the sufferings we endure, the lies we believe, the
Devil's urgings or torments, and a hundred other things. To all that I say that God is moral to do so. I'll
return to that issue later on. Does God really want everyone to be saved? Yes. But is God going to make this
process easy for us? Absolutely not. God wants us to be saved in Jesus by us being overcomers -- those are the
people who hold on to Jesus, come hell or high water. We can't be overcomers unless we have something to
overcome, folks! It's all part of the age old plan. Just how important is heaven to you? Is it a pearl of great
price to you that you are willing to sacrifice deeply for? To be willing to be all-in for, whatever the consequence
to you? Are you willing to both live and die for Jesus and the Gospel? Jesus said of the overcomers:

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk
with me in white: for they are worthy. --- Revelation 3:4

When MindShift suggests that God could have made a world with no evil in it, He did, but we messed it up.
By the way, God will restore the world to His initial goodness state, wherein there will be no more evil from
then on.

One more falsehood that MindShift claims. He seems to think that the Bible claims that God is all-powerful.
But God is not all powerful. Why? Any being who is all powerful is by definition lacking all constraints.
Yet the God of the Bible claims to have constraints. 1) He cannot deny Himself [2 Timothy 2:13], and 2) He
cannot lie [Titus 1:2]. I think that these are good things, because it means that the God of the Bible has a
consistency we can count on. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever [Hebrews 13:8].

MindShift tells us that God is supposed to be All-Loving. Who says so? I can't find such a claim in the Bible.
Even if you could find such a claim in the Bible, you'd have to interpret it by all other scriptures in the Bible.
I can find the claim in the Bible that God is love, but God is also just. Do we want God to be All-Just to the
exclusion of love, or all loving to the exclusion of His justice? (Yes, I suppose that a lot of unbelievers would
prefer this second option.)

God will allow evil in this world until the day He eliminates it once and for all at the end of the Millenial Reign
of Christ. Of course, there are people out there who don't like this deal, but it's the only deal God will extend
to us. Take it or leave it, folks. And while we're on the topic of the end of the Millenial Reign of Christ,
God will use the Devil as His agent one last time to deceive the people on the earth at that time to rebel against
God. After that, the Devil will be cast into the Lake of Fire, never to be able to deceive people again.

Yes, MindShift, God does use Satan as His agent. That's obvious. I don't have any trouble saying it, but I'm not
an apologist; I'm just a Christian. Anyway, I'll present examples below.

When MindShift tells you that God incited David to take a census, he left some things out. First, he points out
an apparent contradiction in the Bible: 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1. I don't see a contradiction. We
are allowed to read between the lines, folks. From the information given, God incited David to do a census,
apparently by allowing Satan to tempt him to do so. If, in a given situation, you know what is right and what
is wrong, does it really make a difference who is tempting you to do wrong. Just do what's right!

Resist the Devil, and he'll flee from you (James 4:7).

So now I present my Principle of Minimal Coupling, which is used to connect two or more verses together
to complete a holistic thought.

The Principle of Minimal Coupling allows for connectivity of two or more related verses (interpretations)
and must be the shortest, simplest connection, which on its own merits contains no unscriptural doctrine
or incorrect 'facts' (e.g., such as those related to biblical history or culture or language).

Note: The name 'The Principle of Minimal Coupling' comes from physics originally, so far as
I am aware.

As for for 70,000 Israelites who would die, the Bible claims that their fates were already sealed because of their
prior sinful behavior. MindShift then quips that this is not free will. I don't know what he's talking about. Is he
claiming that David did not have free will simply because he was tempted? (By the way, I don't follow every
one of MindShift's videos and there'd be no way I could respond to all of them.)

Look, if you don't believe in free will, there is absolutely no argument anyone could give you that could change
your mind. This is not a belief that's based on scientific proof, so no secular proof can be given for it or against it.
However, for the Christian, I believe that there is abundant biblical proof that people have free will, in spite of
temptations.

Gee, MindShift, you think that the God of the Bible sounds like an 'evil dick', huh? Is it too hard for you to
abstain from crude language during your videos on these topics?

Jesus ordered us to love God through our hearts, minds, souls, and strengths [Mark 12:29-30]. These are four
modes of worship and connection to God, and God to us. But our flesh natures, with its lusts and laziness, desires
not to follow ardently after God.

Okay, once again, the straightforward answer to the posed question is, yes, God has and will probably continue
to use the Devil as His agent. His agent of what, though? His agent of testing and delusion and rebuke.

God used the Devil to test Adam and Eve while they were in the Garden of Eden. We all know the story. (If you
don't, it's in Genesis 3.) God used the Devil to tempt King David, as we stated earlier. Here are some verses:

Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying,
"Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." -- 2 Samuel 24:1

Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. -- 1 Chronicles 21:1

Since Israel was at that time ripe for punishment from God, how much of the blame for Israel's backsliding could
be laid upon King David? Could David have done something to reduce this apostasy, but he had failed to do so?
With kingship goes responsibility. I don't know if this was the case. But if this were the case, maybe David was
himself in need of testing of his own obedience to God.

God used the Devil to tempt Job. Centuries later, God used Satan to test Jesus when he was in the wilderness.

By the way, the proof that the Serpent, the Devil, and Satan refer to the same being is found in Revelation 20:2.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Now these are the nations which the Lord left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not
known all the wars of Canaan; Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach
them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof; Namely, five lords of the Philistines, and
all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon, from mount Baalhermon
unto the entering in of Hamath. And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken
unto the commandments of the Lord, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. -- Judges 3:1-4

Biblical wisdom is often ironic. For example, it says,

It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. --- Lamentations 3:27

Misfortune, difficulties, tribulations, and the temptation from the Devil and his fallen angels have always
been God's agents. Anyone can claim to follow God, but all such claims must be vetted for sincerity.

I go into great detail in how God uses these negatives in His dealings with the children of God in my fiction books
on Ilfinor (six books thus far) and Tristan (one book thus far). Let's look at a discourse between Tristan and his
guardian angel one afternoon. But first, I need to set the stage for the reader.

These are speculative fiction stories on an imaginary continent of Panedom in the Atlantic Ocean during the Second
Century AD. Ilfinor is a young maegos, chosen of God to right the major wrongs on the continent. Tristan is one
very important secondary character in the combined stories.

The webpage to these fiction stories is here: (in PDF form for free).

Tristan is at this time nineteen years old. He was formarly a homosexual, but now is a new Christian and budding
traveling preacher to his continent. What makes Tristan particularly interesting is that he is the most beautiful
man on earth at that time (according to God). We pick up the story just after Tristan has delivered some females
to the town of Portal. On the way, they stayed at a cabin along the road, and it was invaded by bandits, who would
have raped the females had it not been for Tristan to trade his own highly beautiful body in place of the females.
The bandits took him up on that. They departed the cabin the next morning, leaving Tristan for dead and the
females unharmed.

The next day, Tristan delivered the females to Portal and then he stayed over night at the house of a friend of his
back in Holden. In early afternoon the next day, he was very tired from his ride, so he rode off to a nearby stream
to rest and water his horse. At this point he is alone and getting ready to finish his trip back to Holden, when there
appears to him a being. We find out that this being is an angel -- his guardian angel -- who wants to ask Tristan
some questions to satisfy his curiosity. He had gotten permission from God to converse with Tristan, but told to be
ready to correct any doctrinal mistake that lad might have and to encourage him in his walk with the Lord.

As a young believer, Tristan carries with him a lot of guilt over the sins he committed before he got saved. Add
to that the burden that he must bear the curse of being the constant center of sexual attention wherever he goes.
This often leads to him being propositioned and sometimes raped. He hates this aspect of his beauty. God is using
this burden on him to test him to remain faithful to him and to rely on His grace to find the victory. The only thing
that can destroy him is his lack of determination to see this thing through to the bitter end, regarding God as a good
God, regardless of appearances to the contrary. Is God being fair to this new believer? Well, dear reader, what's
fairness got to do with it? There are far more important things than fairness.

And so we cut into the story:

   Then, he noticed something appear in his peripheral vision to his left. Turning to face the being, he saw
across the creek the same young man he had met across the creek before, who stood there smiling at him.
   "Will you speak to me at length this time, being?"
   "I will this time."
   "Do you have a message for me?"
   "Not yet. Maybe later, depending on how the conversation goes."
   "Then what?"
   The young man pointed to the ground to Tristan’s left, and there appeared a wooden cross with a leather
cord through its top.
   "Oh, wow! It’s beautiful! Is it for me?"
   "It is."
   "May I pick it up?"
   "Please do. And wear it, if you will."
   Tristan picked it up and then placed the cord around his neck, letting the cross rest
above his sternum.
   "It’s wonderful, being."
   "I’m an angel, Tristan Rivers."
   "I was hoping so. Are you the angel they found sitting on the slab where Jesus was laid in his
sepulcher on the first Easter Day?"
   "That would be telling."
   "Sorry."
   "Do you want to know my name?"
   "No. I know that angels do not like to reveal their names."
   "Tristan, did you know that angels are curious beings?"
   "Yes. The Apostle Peter said so in 1 Peter 1:12, ‘things the angels desire to look into’."
   "I am curious."
   "About what?"
   "Human male beauty."
   "Do you suppose me to be an expert on it?"
   "If not you, then who?"
   "This is about what happened at the cabin, isn’t it?"
   "That is part of it."
   "What’s your question?"
   "First, the preliminaries. How old do I look?"
   "Seventeen."
   "That was fast. Was that by a word of knowledge, or just human estimation?"
   "Human estimation."
   "But, of course, I must be older than that, right?"
   "Right."
   "On the order of thousands of years or millions of years?"
   "Thousands of years."
   "You’re not an evolutionist, then?"
   "Of course not! If I were, then how could I believe in the first book of the Bible? To be a
Christian is to be all in. And if the world think me crazy for it, then so be it."
   "Then, since the time of Creation, right?"
   "Right."
   "We had our times of beauty lust, Tristan, before the Great Schism, when Lucifer fell by reason of beauty lust.
But those of us who remained loyal to God are now as Ilfinor, and Ilfinor and the maegoses are as we who
stayed faithful."
   "I envy you, angel. You are free of it."
   "If you endure to the end, you, too, will be free of it."
   "Praise the Lord for that! And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that
doeth the will of God abideth for ever." [1 John 2:17]
   "I detect some resentment in you, Tristan. I did not know it was there. But, then again, you are a
complicated human."
   "How so?"
   "You publicly decry beauty as a curse and then employ it as a weapon against the bandits."
   "Beauty has always been a weapon! Even back to the fruit on the tree of the Knowledge of Good
and Evil in the Garden of Eden. For Eve saw that the fruit was good to look at." [Genesis 3:6]

[Then the angel explains to Tristan the necessity of true temptation for obedience to be meaningful.]

   "Without some inner-wanting existing within you, there could be no genuine temptation. And without
genuine temptation, there could be no meaningful choice to be made. And if there were no meaningful
choice to be made, then obedience to the commandment from God not to eat the fruit of that tree would
have been meaningless."
   "I suppose that’s logical, but it’s infuriating, just the same."
   "You see, Tristan, there is resentment in you. You wish to find rest from lust, but you must be patient.
As scripture declares: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God [Hebrews 4:9] and also
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life." [Romans 2:7]
   "You shame me, angel. I know those verses well. But I try very hard to deal with my lusts. As for the
bandits, I did not anticipate meeting them, but when it happened, I had only one weapon at my disposal.
The solution to that problem was obvious. I’ve known for years that most men who claim would never
have sex with another man, would eagerly have sex with me, and think themselves lucky for having done so."
   "But you did much more than merely to accept it as their choice they presented to you. You decided to
entice them to commit homosexual fornication rather than to have natural sex with the females. In fact,
you presented your naked legs to them as they first entered the cabin, to prejudice them early on,
before any talk of sex had even occurred."
   "That’s true. But I didn’t assume they were busting into the cabin just to chat about the weather and to share
tea and crackers with us. Please give me some credit for having a brain. If I had not acted preemptively,
they may have lusted on the females first, and settled the question of raping them before I had even a
chance to convince them to do me instead."
   "But your choice was ‘unnatural’, was it not?"
   "Is that all you care about? Have you ever been raped, angel?"
   "What’s that got to do with it?"
   "Everything!"

If Tristan is to overcome his undercurrent of negative emotions toward God, he must learn to control his
emotions with his mind, by understanding the logic of the situation.

Most of these arguments that I make for doctrine, for overcoming sin, I make from a standpoint of scriptures
mixed with logic. You can find my fiction books (in PDF form for free) about Tristan and Ilfinor here:

The Ilfinor and Tristan stories.